Le Monde interview with President Mas: "Catalonia could easily be a state within the European Union"

Editor's note:

The president of the Catalan Government, Artur Mas, has once again defended Catalonia’s aspirations for greater sovereignty. In an interview published on Friday, February 17th, in the French newspaper Le Monde, Mr. Mas reiterated the need for a new fiscal pact with the Spanish State, and assured his interviewer that Catalonia could easily be a state within a more federal European Union that gave less power to centralized states and more power to territorial governments. President Mas does not rule out a referendum on independence because he believes this option enjoys wide support in Catalonia.

Ever since he brought nationalism to the foreground again in Catalonia in November 2010, Artur Mas, president of his autonomous government, has been announcing the start of a period of “national transition.” Within the ever-turbulent history of the relationship between Barcelona and Madrid, this national transition seeks to provide the autonomous region with “the right to decide its future.”

At a time of budget cuts and a struggle against public deficits, Mr. Mas hopes to wrest a “fiscal pact” from Madrid that would give Catalonia fiscal autonomy. If Madrid ends up refusing, he does not rule out a referendum on self-determination.

Has the time come for Catalonia to emancipate itself from Spain?

Catalonia has had autonomy for thirty years now, and it is an arrangement that has more or less worked, but this period is now coming to an end. It has become clear that the current system will not allow us to obtain a greater degree of self-government. It is time to chart a new course and begin a national transition guided by the following principle: Catalonia is a nation and it has the right to decide its future. Within this basic framework, we can choose to still have close ties to Spain, or even remain inside it. Or we could distance ourselves, or even end up leaving Spain altogether. This is what will have to be determined over the next few years.

Would Catalonia be ready to vote on independence?

There is one part of the population that has always been in favor of independence. And recently, because of the difficulties Catalonia has been having in finding its place within Spain, yet another part of the population has embraced this option. Some people were already on board, and others have just recently hopped on.

Are you also “on board”?

Yes, on a personal level. I believe that Catalonia could easily be a state within the European Union. The “Holland of the South”, as some call it. But politically, the reality is much more complicated. Catalonia is a very diverse society; more than half of the population comes from Spain or outside Spain. We have belonged to the Spanish state for 500 years – 300 of those years by force, after losing battles and wars. Further complicating matters, Spain is the natural market for many Catalan companies. There are many conflicting interests.

What would the solution be? 

We want Catalonia to have a different status; one that we believe would make a lot of sense in today’s emerging Europe. We envision a Europe that places greater emphasis on Europe and the territorial governments and less emphasis on centralized states. We see a more federal Europe with increased power in Brussels, less power in Paris, Madrid or Berlin, but more in Barcelona or Toulouse.

The traditional nation states will never be exactly the same again. They will become less powerful, but this will be to Europe’s benefit. If some day we became a State, we wouldn’t have our own army, foreign policy, border control or customs, currency or central bank. But we would have local policies, basic public services, infrastructure, internal security and a tax system. In fact, a fiscal pact from Madrid would allow us to practically reach this same point without having to do much more. This is why the fiscal pact is not only a solution for Catalonia, it is also a solution for Spain.

You have said that with a “fiscal pact” you would no longer have to make budget cuts. Isn’t this a way of using the crisis to encourage the pro-independence movement?

My first priority, even before the fiscal pact, is to create jobs and rebuild the economy. The fiscal pact will help us do this. If a greater part of the wealth we generate becomes available to us, we can vastly improve the difficult situation we find ourselves in. And if we find ourselves in this situation, it is because Spain drains us of an excessive part of our resources. Every year the fiscal deficit – the difference between what Catalonia sends to Madrid (in the form of taxes and contributions) and what we receive in exchange— is about 8% or 9% of our GDP. In Germany, the deficit of the Länder is capped at 4%. This is what we are asking for.

If Catalonia were an independent State, we would have 10 to 15 billion more euros. With the fiscal pact – which would cut our fiscal deficit in half— we would solve our public finance problems. The economic measures we have put in place so far represent close to 2.5 billion euros, or one fifth of our fiscal deficit.

Wouldn’t the fiscal pact signal the end to the solidarity principle between Spanish regions?

No, it wouldn’t. Once we had collected our taxes we would send the Spanish government “return fees” that would go toward paying the State for the services it provides to Catalonia. We would also continue to contribute to the solidarity fund that gets redistributed among the less productive regions. It is not very different from what the Scots are proposing to the United Kingdom.

What kind of timetable would you set yourselves for obtaining the fiscal pact?

We will present the project in the Catalan Parliament this year. We already have an absolute majority on this measure in Parliament, but we are aiming for an even wider consensus. Between 70% and 80% of the population supports the fiscal pact, but the political parties are more divided. Then, at the end of 2012 or the beginning of 2013, we will present it to the Central Government and the Spanish political parties. From that point on, we’ll see.

If Madrid refuses, do you foresee a referendum?

We are not ruling it out, but we haven’t made our decision yet. First we will try to see how far we can go with the fiscal pact.

How do you pressure Madrid if Mariano Rajoy’s conservative government holds absolute majority in the Spanish Parliament?

Admittedly, the PP doesn’t need us. We may not have the strength we once had in Madrid, but in Catalonia we are stronger than we have ever been. One thing compensates for the other, and in Catalonia it is clear that we would have more support for a referendum.

Following severe cuts to public services in 2011, the Catalan budget for 2012 now includes salary reductions for civil servants. Many Catalans are complaining...

We did what we had to do without putting the essence of our welfare state in danger. In 2011 we saved 1.8 billion euros. This year, we will reduce our expenses 0.7% further, thanks in large part to having lowered the salaries of 230,000 Catalan civil servants. In two years we will have reduced our expenses by 8%. In addition, we are going to increase our revenues thanks to new taxes, notably a tourist tax and a tax on medical prescriptions. We could do more if we had more devolved powers!

Interview by Sandrine Morel

For more information on the situation in Catalonia, please consult the following article published in The Huffington Post on February 23^rd, 2012:

“Spain and the Blame Game” 

This article was co-authored by:

Germà Bel, Professor of Economics and Director of the Pasqual Maragall Chair, University of Barcelona.

Carles Boix, Robert Garrett Professor of Politics and Public Affairs, Woodrow Wilson School, Princeton University

Elizabeth Castro, Publisher, Catalonia Press

Elisenda Paluzie, Dean of the School of Economics and Business, University of Barcelona.